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Hill Holder faulty on 2013 Fiesta - sticks while driving

Msinnott

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#1
Hello!
I am having an issue with the hill holder clutch on my 2013 fiesta. The brakes will stick at least half of the time when I’m trying to start even when I’m not on a hill. I need to pump the brakes several times before it will disengage. I don’t need the feature so is there anyway to turn it off or does anyone have any ideas on how to fix it?

Thanks in advance!
 

scotman

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#2
I would have the rear brakes inspected and adjusted. This condition seems to become more common on Fiesta's that have over 60k miles on them.
 

Handy Andy

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#3
You have a 2013 - and "Hill Assist" seems to be the "in thing"? Yikes - might be more of a Brake service than a Hill Assist problem.

I may not have a way to fix it, but I may have a way to make the condition a little less of a headache or problems with "stalling" when trying to move from a stopped position.

It needs your attention - for if you don't spend the time knowing your vehicle well enough, the next time you're in for service, those guys on the other side of the counter are going to think of "P.T. Barnum" as "There's one born every minute".

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Following @scotman lead - the "Hill" assist condition needs to clear first before the vehicle can even go forward. So the issue surrounds the "holding" of the brakes for a longer time than needed.

IF you own an Automatic - you might feel a "tug" or jerk, even hear a "clank". But if you own a manual, begin to engage the gear only to find - it "sticks". Could be the Hill assist - but is it because of "Hill assist" or is your BRAKE Light and "Cruise control" switch are not fully releasing? Hill Assist is not SUPPOSED to be on, but if it thinks something can go wrong - it might engage "Park Assist" moment and actually check for objects it may sense - that is if you have Park Assist. It's those little sensors that look like rivets in the bumper - if you have those - it may engage a collision avoidance condition.

If you don't then the following can pretty much apply to you, in fact it can apply to anyone whom still owns a "real" car these days that requires you to be responsible for it. As in - you drive and are in, control of the vehicle - not ones that - it "drives itself" and you're left to update your Facebook Status...

It "Hill Assist" also looks at Clutch and "Clutch Engaging" switch too...Along with if there happens to be a clearance issue from the Parking Brake Handle getting a little too tight in adjustment? The "Oh S*it" Handle right next to you just behind the shifter - between the seats...

All of the above I've have had to rule out one step at a time to solve this condition for myself.

Why?

Because...it only needs to happens twice - once with myself - ok, it's on me - but when the Wife's in the car with me and it does this - ok, there's a real condition I need to investigate.

Hmm... Might want to sit down with your car and have a chat with it - as in open the drivers side door and start looking underneath the dash to locate the Brake Clutch and Accelerator.

Ok, you found the pedals, but are you also seeing their levers and special tabs that seem to hit against other switches?

Yeah, those too, if they are goofed up or stuck or plugged with belly button lint, Ear Wax and Bug Spray and Floor Mat Dirt - might be a problem.

They are mechanical and use physical plunger stems hooked up to springs that help keep tension on the plunger so it can operate a set of contacts to show some type of action is occurring at the pedal. Same with your Brakes - if these plungers are stuck - worn or otherwise questionable - they may not send the right signals properly to clear a condition.

For the Brake - you have two - a Blue / White and Solid Black - one controls the Brake Light, the other controls "Cruise Control".
As a redundant system, the Brake Light Switch is the eventual override and has final say - so you know - the Brake lights have to be on to help the system CLEAR a condition.

The Cruise Control switch, also helps with Brake to offer "Hill Assist" - but does not have Final Say. If it is damaged though - the Brake Light is the only thing left in the deck of cards in which is has to play and have any chances of a winning bet. So if both switches are adjusted properly - the Hill Assist condition never occurs UNLESS IT IS SET, because both switches are sending Signals to keep specific conditions "cleared".

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IF the shafts are dirty or coated with something - this can cause a "slow release" worse than an Aspirin, at least the timing part of it. You don't feel well in pain, so you take it and 24 hours later you're back to work - only now does the pain seem to subside after you suffered thru it. Ok, maybe not that much drama - well, you get the idea - might want to investigate their throw - from release to full extension - make sure the plungers are seemingly wanting willing and able to be working and not sticking in one position or even if they are even there - some switches can fall out of their seats and dangle - which can cause issues when you didn't think they could because you noticed a quirk but the condition seems to have cleared itself - until now...

Ok, the above was a overview of something I had to solve thru a series of steps you normally don't have to do unless the "Stick" of the brakes at a complete stop becomes a stall and possible endangerment issue of others you're in the way of. This was occurring on a NEW vehicle - so this can become a chronic issue if I don't participate and learn how this "Hill Assist" even works.

Hill Assist works when you engage the system, it is designed to keep the Brakes from releasing and forcing the vehicle to roll uncontrolled before you engage the gears from a complete stop.

It has sensors that look for motion, and your input to the system from you moving into gear and releasing the brakes - if one input is not right it attempts to compensate - but if the input never is restored to a sensible condition when you DON'T need it - the system cannot process the events correctly and can cause erratic operation. You have to cause a secondary event - again an override condition "Brakes" needs to be reset - reseated by you - to release the brakes. Other input even from the MAF/MAP sensors is used to determine how much force is being applied to the wheels to make them move and will release the solenoids to allow the Brakes to be operated normally.

Ok, Firstly - Get a spotter to help you - but you have to find out how "well" the Brake System is - find it's condition.

Engine Off - left overnight...

Press on the Brakes - slowly, let the spotter know when your foot is on the Brake - then continue to slowly press down - have them tell you to "STOP" when they see your Brake Lights light up - remember this position and how far you have to press the pedal down...

When you start your car in the morning or first time from an overnight - do you ever check to see if the Brakes are still even able to be pressed? Does the Brake pedal still work when the engine is left parked overnight? Leave the Engine off - does the pedal seem stiff - short - not heading to the floor like it does when you drive? IF it doesn't feel like there is any reserve in the Brake Pedal - Stop right here - you may a found one of many main reasons for the condition you speak of. The BOOSTER that holds the vacuum the motor produces - is supposed to hold vacuum nearly indefinitely unless you...

A - have a foreign object stuck in a pivot point of the brake lever.​
B - The Plungers are pressing on the pedal - not enough clearance to let the plungers operate and seat freely.​
C - One Plunger is unseated or its wiring connector is not seated​
D - Stalled Motor and need a reserve to pull off to the shoulder to stop.​
If you only Selected D then proceed - else you'll have to investigate why you don't have reserve vacuum.​
If you only need to press a couple of times and the vacuum is used up - this is normal.​
But if it's flat-stiff and you have to really press hard to make the Brake Light work - yes, you'll need to look into why the Pedal Push Rod is causing this.​

So far we have covered,

Brake Light - how far down does the Pedal need to be pressed before the Brake Light - lights?
Brake Pedal - Stiff Operation left parked overnight means loss of vacuum or an air leak in the system - might cause a problem with low vacuum or slow release of brake fluid from the lines back into the master cylinder from the lack of pressure to return the booster to a balanced condition.
Improper Plunger Operation - sticking or slow release of switching conditions can cause a timing release problem - the vehicle loses it's ability to sense conditions properly and act accordingly.

Other Things to think about...

Age - if the vehicle sits overnight and encounters a loss of vacuum, The Push rod can "sink" causing the brake light plunger to move. It may cause the brake lights to come on when you're not noticing them - then they are shut off overnight because the Battery drain system sees this as a load and shuts off all electrical within a given set time - so the Brake lights don't drain down the battery. You don't see this because the Battery Minder system is doing it's job.
  • A potential way to detect this condition is to see if the Brake lights "flash" when you turn the key to IGNITION or START - the flash is from the clearing of a condition it does in an initialization of the system - this may be a tell-tale sign of problems with the switches - not necessarily with the brakes.
Parking Brake clearance - check the operation - does the brakes drag? How many clicks before it sets the rear drums?

Take a simple 2 ton floor jack - Chock front wheels keep it in gear (3rd works well) use a low-profile floor jack so you can place it under the rear "axle" cross member and lift rear wheels. It's pretty light back there, so with care, find center, to place the jack in the center, of the cross member and lift the rear of the vehicle so the rear wheels can be spun freely.
  • Parking Brake off...
  • Wheels able to spin freely or do you have difficulty?
    • If it takes an effort to spin and not spin easily - the brakes are dragging - at least in the Drum of the one you're attempting to spin. This side needs adjustment or a closer inspection of Brake Cable and Shoes in the drum.
  • If easy to spin - go to the Parking brake and lift to one click - then repeat the above.
  • Still easy? - Go to 2nd Click and try again - repeating the spin attempts.
  • Keep clicking one click and repeat until the wheels can't spin freely.
  • Does one stop sooner than the other? Service that quicker stop - side soon, investigate the imbalance between the drums.
Using the above information - assess the Brakes...

Parking Brake uses 4 to 5 clicks and one slows but still will move with some effort - but next click they are both stopped - it passed this test result is normal.
Parking Brake uses 2 to 3 clicks and Brakes drag - but will move with effort - Ok, it's a little tight but also remember age can make the adjusters work differently as the pads wear down - this is a sign that perhaps the brakes have dragged before or the ABS/TRAC or even the Hill Assist system - engaging - is forcing the adjusters to work harder then they should - this might mean the Parking Brake might need to be backed off a turn of two to start engagement at 5 clicks to provide more room for "hill assist" solenoid to acquire and hold a given level of fluid - so that as it's released it does not force a dragging condition and make the Adjusters work harder to reseat the pads to the drums.

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Brakes (The hydraulic side) are two redundant systems operate in pairs of opposite corners - so one system works Front Disc and opposite side Drum (Or Disc) - so does the other system.

If one of these systems is contaminated, with Debris or the pads of the Disc or Drums are not evenly worn, this indicates the Brake system needs service - soon - and if not inspected and corrected - can cause a crash from loss of control in braking.

This may mean brake lines are contaminated or damaged or the caliper and piston system is worn, or pads thickness is too thin and have reached the end of their service life. The Parking Brake is the mechanical lever system for Rear Drums/Disc but also can - if too tight in adjustment - force the pistons to retain pressure in the lines causing the front calipers to drag also - creating an unstable condition which should be investigated and corrected as soon as possible.

The above is preliminary and is designed to be a guide to help you - it is not meant to diagnose or cure any diseases you or your vehicle may have.
 

Handy Andy

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#3
I wanted to add in something you may need to know.

For if you own an automatic transmission not the Dual Clutch "Sport" type - the two switches on the Brake pedal - if they are not properly adjusted - will put your Fiesta into what feels to be a stumbling mode.

There are two switches - one Black - for Brake (and is also Override) and a White or Blue color switch - which is used for Cruise, as well as a "non DCTS" a type of torque converter clutch engage.

Torque Converter Clutch engage?

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Best way to describe it.

It's actually the Transmission Fluid pump (in older cars). But it uses a solenoid to move fluid thru it like a vacuum switch only with oil - it's designed as a "restriction" from the tranny pump to keep pressure to move the vehicle from a stopped position slowly - and not "jump" into gear from excessive pressure or RPM. Works with the Brake actuator assembly - one of your switches opens the port when you release the brakes allowing for more fluid to circulate. IF your brakes are still applied - this causes more wear on the transmission - so if the switch can help to anticipate - best to use it for that reason.

In light of the Fiesta,
  • The test is a process Ford uses to check and make sure that the vehicle and the accelerator on it, are working right.
  • In older days, you had to set Curb Idle speed to make sure that the car did not creep forward and wear out the braking system because of an improper idle speed setting.
    • That Curb Idle Speed setting was set to keep the car from placing the wheels with too much torque when you're stopped or slowing down to a stop - you did not have a runaway even when your foot was off the pedal. If set too high, the vehicle would roll forward and if an automatic, would shift into a higher gear going even faster causing a dangerous "runaway" condition
    • In current systems, there is not an idle speed setting for you to play with or get into trouble over, the PCM sees the vehicle speed and engine speed and per emissions, sets and checks the system for proper engine speed and load. It's done all this figuring out for you.
  • Ford uses this test to determine a feedback process is working, that the idle speed, and the output shaft speed sensor are working and helping to control speed when you left your foot off the brake and the accelerator - it doesn't decide to gun forward or just sit there and even coast backwards - due to the newer clutch designs they are using are electronically controlled.
IF you own any Ford vehicle - the shift from Reverse to Drive can "lag" because of the switchover as well as engagement. There is a TSB about this - you have to replace the tranny pump - if it fails a simple test. (If your vehicle is newer, the speed sensor is now suspect as causing this condition because the engines PCM is seeing any input or erroneous input - a feedback system to keep the vehicles speed under control and keep the powertrain from getting damaged in the process.)

Problem is whether it passes the test or not, you'll still have issues unless you reset the APSECT of those two switches - the Black one works as override - but the White one is supposed to actuate first when you press the pedal. And fully release when the pedal is let go (full release) This helps the engine "prepare" to stop and also to cancel the Cruise Control as well as "Hill Assist" engage. When the two are close together - then you need to pay attention to how far the brake pushrod is in - for if it's in too far and keeping pressure on the brakes holding you stationary - then you have a "Hill Assist" feeling all the time because of the aspect of the two switches are not helping the system in knowing what to do - too many fails it will go into a "I will do this - using this" until the switches are reset to a better aspect and the system can relearn the shift "points" without having to cause a stalling condition. You're literally stuck in this position until you help the system use the switches again.
  • Another point to remember - the Hill Assist uses the brakes to help hold the car in place, if you place a lot of pressure on the brake pedal - that pressure build up can force the car to leap forward if you try to accelerate and it doesn't give way (release) properly to release the brakes - you can feel them sticking.
  • This requires that you set your switches, and the brakes master cylinder pushrod, in correct aspect so that when the brakes are released the cylinders ports are fully open to receive the release of fluid and pressure - failure of keeping this aspect can keep the pressure into the system for too long and even damage the drivetrain from the dragging brakes - or let the car coast in the direction of the slope you are in, and cause a crash - or a very embarrassing incident.

As things get older, those switches are aging too, as well as the pedal to brake push rod - and it's return spring and dirt and debris can affect the performance.

Basically:​

  • One pair of wires are used for Transmission - the other set is for Brake light and BCM.
    • Manual uses the two - one for Brake light the other for "Idle up" take-off
    • Automatics use the two - One from Brake Light - the other for Transmission Solenoid engagement control
  • Ford Focus - uses this as a COMBINATION switch - one housing - two separate contacts same results
  • Ford Fiesta - two separate switches with PADDLES that can be adjusted to set ASPECT of which engages first to help in control.
    • Aspect being - one Control switch can be tweaked to act AFTER or BEFORE the other one to alter the way the system handles braking and transmission control during braking.
    • Setting both to engage at different positions of the Brake pedal application - changes the way the PCM/TCM processes the braking action.
    • These also are putting (pushing using spring pressure) on the Brake Pedal Pushrod
      • - setting the paddles too close will force the brakes to drag or engage while the switches are not set properly to release the system to handle braking
      • - you want to set the paddles to engage the brake light but also set the transmission control to disengage - or release power to prevent overpowering the brakes when you're attempting to stop and possibly stalling the motor as well as extra wear on the transmission you don't want.

IF the switches are not set up so they are close together but not EXACTLY in sync, they work better by letting the White switch lead first into the press to stop moment - then the black one lights the Brake light.

It is this action - which is monitored by the BCM, can then anticipate deceleration, acceleration or coast better if they are close to aspect but white leads to black on press. Release: Black leads white. This is done so; the solenoid and the rest of the transmission drive train are NOT placed in "jerky" modes while you're in stop start traffic or waiting for a light to change - then, when you release the brakes, it begins the engagement without too much creep or launch.

You can feel the "step" engagement if the White and Black switches as well as Brake pushrod to applied brakes are too far apart, you can feel the system drag itself and you can be left literally sitting there because of this incorrectly set aspect. If the switches are not set right - the brake light switch takes control, and you could be sitting there until the light goes off and that action then clears the BCM and standard Automatic Solenoid to open and begin the upshift process. On top of that - the drag in the brake release affects how the system even knows what gear to be in - without the stumble.

It can also affect emissions - as its loss of power and a "jerky" feel to the shifts that go from idle, release, start in 1st to 2nd and up - why? Because of several emission control factors that engage the EGR in an Automatic as well as the Valve timing and spark advance - to keep the engine lean enough under torque of acceleration and also aware to the wide variability to low-speed torque differences that occur when brining a stopped vehicle to roll and accelerate let alone the creep along to match speed of idling cars rolling thru at idle until they are clear to accelerate. The Jerky feel from applying throttle is the misfire on one or two cylinders because of too much torque to fuel mix settings - and is why Autos have EGR valves and Manuals don't.

The transmission has built in safeguards if the aspect is too screwed up to help it - it simply falls back to Black and Brake Light On to work the solenoid.

But if you have a manual - you notice this as an "Idle up" sense in speed to help with launch.

The A/T in a non DCT transmission can also be thought of as this idle up - but with throttle to torque control.

Do what you want, but it is your transmission.
 
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