Suspension interchangeabe between ST and other trims?

[AnthonyV83]

Hi folks,

Apologies if this has been answered, but I scrolled through the 3 pages of suspension section and didn't see this answered anywhere.

Will the suspension components from the ST interchange with S, SE, etc... Swaybars, struts/shocks etc...

I'm looking at getting an SE but want to run ST suspension upgrades. Namely, coilovers or shock upgrades that are out there and swaybar/ torsion upgrades.

Cheers,

- Anthony

 

[manbearpig]

Pretty sure you can. Ford Racing has a handling kit for the standard Fiesta that is pretty inexpensive, Steeda's website has it for $265.95. Lowers the car an inch and stiffens everything up a bit. If you're looking to spend a bunch of money on upgrades, I would just get an ST. There's also more info on fiestafaction.com as well.

 

[AnthonyV83]

Pretty sure you can. Ford Racing has a handling kit for the standard Fiesta that is pretty inexpensive, Steeda's website has it for $265.95. Lowers the car an inch and stiffens everything up a bit. If you're looking to spend a bunch of money on upgrades, I would just get an ST. There's also more info on fiestafaction.com as well.

Thanks for the suggestions! Just got done perusing STEEDA website. From what I can tell it seems stuff fits either. Though, the bilstein and KW kits are specific to each? Suppose I should give them a call.

Not thinking I'll spend tons on upgrades. I've got my eye on an SE for $7500 with 38K on it. Looks like I'd be maybe $1300 for all the handling upgrades I'd like to do. Im thinking car will be a blast in the twisties for relatively little money. Obviously magnitudes slower than the ST, but I enjoy driving slow cars fast .

Do (m)any on here mod the standard fiesta?

 

[manbearpig]

Seems like this forum is pretty dead now, but I've seen some modded non-ST Fiestas on here. I doubt you'll get much more power out of the 1.6L though, Ford has done a pretty good job of squeezing what they could out of it.

 

[scotman]

Thanks for the suggestions! Just got done perusing STEEDA website. From what I can tell it seems stuff fits either. Though, the bilstein and KW kits are specific to each? Suppose I should give them a call.

Not thinking I'll spend tons on upgrades. I've got my eye on an SE for $7500 with 38K on it. Looks like I'd be maybe $1300 for all the handling upgrades I'd like to do. Im thinking car will be a blast in the twisties for relatively little money. Obviously magnitudes slower than the ST, but I enjoy driving slow cars fast .

Do (m)any on here mod the standard fiesta?

I made changes to my 11 Fiesta hatchback. If you are serious about using the ST parts it's probably a good idea to get the whole rear axle assembly with the brakes. Get the whole front knuckle assembly with the brakes, as well. If you can get the ST springs and strut's for very little extra cost that is a decision to make AFTER you have driven a stock ST. Many people felt that it was harsh. The heavy Stock wheels didn't get much love either.
You might want to price out a set of springs and performance struts and a rear sway bar stiffener beam. I think the cost of that stuff (new) was not unreasonable or difficult to install. Compared to the hassle of finding and possibly having to remove used ST parts that you may not like the results of.

 

[AnthonyV83]

Seems like this forum is pretty dead now, but I've seen some modded non-ST Fiestas on here. I doubt you'll get much more power out of the 1.6L though, Ford has done a pretty good job of squeezing what they could out of it.

Not really planning any power mods. Would leave the motor alone, maybe header or exhaust mostly for the excitement of a little added noise lol

 

[AnthonyV83]

I made changes to my 11 Fiesta hatchback. If you are serious about using the ST parts it's probably a good idea to get the whole rear axle assembly with the brakes. Get the whole front knuckle assembly with the brakes, as well. If you can get the ST springs and strut's for very little extra cost that is a decision to make AFTER you have driven a stock ST. Many people felt that it was harsh. The heavy Stock wheels didn't get much love either.
You might want to price out a set of springs and performance struts and a rear sway bar stiffener beam. I think the cost of that stuff (new) was not unreasonable or difficult to install. Compared to the hassle of finding and possibly having to remove used ST parts that you may not like the results of.

More specifically I was thinking interchangeably between aftermarket stuff, i.e struts/shocks, or coilovers. Front swaybar, stiffener beam etc... Just wasn't sure if all the aftermarket stuff would just bolt up to either car.

For example, would coilovers with part# for the ST be a direct fit on the SE. From what I've gathered so far it seems they would. Just, past experiences with other vehicles makes me err on the side of caution lol.

 

[scotman]

More specifically I was thinking interchangeably between aftermarket stuff, i.e struts/shocks, or coilovers. Front swaybar, stiffener beam etc... Just wasn't sure if all the aftermarket stuff would just bolt up to either car.

For example, would coilovers with part# for the ST be a direct fit on the SE. From what I've gathered so far it seems they would. Just, past experiences with other vehicles makes me err on the side of caution lol.

The coilovers should work on either versions. An ST rear axle beam would not need a addition of a sway bar/stiffener.its already a stiffer component. The basic Fiesta has a larger sway bar than the ST. Your money is better spent on poly frame bushings and adjustable end links on the front sway bar.
I found that the suspension upgrades on my 2011 Fiesta were amplified by installing a set of lightweight wheels.

 

[manbearpig]

Bigger sway bars aren't always better. If your struts and springs are stiff, a bigger sway bar is just going to make the suspension travel even less. Can also worsen understeer.

 

[AnthonyV83]

The coilovers should work on either versions. An ST rear axle beam would not need a addition of a sway bar/stiffener.its already a stiffer component. The basic Fiesta has a larger sway bar than the ST. Your money is better spent on poly frame bushings and adjustable end links on the front sway bar.
I found that the suspension upgrades on my 2011 Fiesta were amplified by installing a set of lightweight wheels.

Good info! Thanks!

I have a wheel manufacturer I've worked with in the past called BRAID. Would likely order a set of wheels in maybe 15x6.5, maybe 15x7. That way can increase width a bit without sacrificing gearing, which I find important on low hp cars.

 

[AnthonyV83]

Bigger sway bars aren't always better. If your struts and springs are stiff, a bigger sway bar is just going to make the suspension travel even less. Can also worsen understeer.

Agreed.

For road cars on street tires with no aero etc... though, I like to usually run relatively soft- moderate spring rates and get more of my actual wheel rate from the swaybar. The theory being softer springs letting the dampers suck up vertical compressions and the sway/ torsion bars handle the lateral loads.

With soft springs, you can usually run more low speed bump damping in the shocks to get feedback/turn in response to control the small intial motions and softer high speed bump, and valve for a digressive curve to suck up the largest stuff. That said, I doubt I'll run 2 or 3 way dampers on this lol. Probably just a good off the shelf shock that can be revalved if that exists. Car is not for comp or anything, just a toy to blow off steam lol.

You guys know what the motion ratio is for these? Haven't really searched. Im guessing almost 1:1 with the front struts, no idea with where the rear springs are mounted.

 

[scotman]

The higher quality performance shocks and strut's often go into some details about their characteristics in their product descriptions. You don't specify what brand is the subject of your question.
I have had coil overs on my street car in the past. My opinion of them for general use is not positive. Road grime and mud are not compatible with a threaded shock body.I ended up using a lot of WD 40 to keep the shocks from being clogged up and getting seized or unadjustable! It was simply a mess to maintain!
All that aside, I have them on my racecar and love em!
My opinion of the parts I have bought for the basic Fiesta is the Ford Racing FR3A kit is not a high performance product. It's the European Fiesta basic suspension. It's not a very durable damper. But it is a cheap way to get the Fiesta lowered enough to get through Tech at an SCCA autocross.
I prefer to have some adjustability and like the Koni Sport damper. With an Eibach or H&R spring set. The Koni STRT is said to be like a sport set to soft. I can't say for sure because I have not tried that Koni product yet.
I understand that Bilstein offers a B-8 adjustable shock for the Fiesta. It's well regarded but seams to be difficult to find, according to the forums.
I believe that there is a couple of paths that could be taken on terms of improvement in the handling of the Basic Fiesta. I think big sway bars are a mistake for either of those paths. Better dampers, poly bushings, adjustable end links and very light wheels wrapped in grippy tires will be most effective. Both versions of the Fiesta are what could be called "momentum cars". The fuel economy gearing in the manual transmission basic Fiesta is the biggest impediment to making substantial improvements to it as an autocross toy.

 

[manbearpig]

Not to mention if they salt the roads where you live. I'm pretty upset I didn't get my beater running for the winter, my expensive rack and pinion I put on my truck got covered in salt and now it's going to take some hours to get it cleaned back up.

OP, are you doing autocross? I find the stock gearing fine for "spirited" backroad driving.

 

[AnthonyV83]

The higher quality performance shocks and strut's often go into some details about their characteristics in their product descriptions. You don't specify what brand is the subject of your question.
I have had coil overs on my street car in the past. My opinion of them for general use is not positive. Road grime and mud are not compatible with a threaded shock body.I ended up using a lot of WD 40 to keep the shocks from being clogged up and getting seized or unadjustable! It was simply a mess to maintain!
All that aside, I have them on my racecar and love em!
My opinion of the parts I have bought for the basic Fiesta is the Ford Racing FR3A kit is not a high performance product. It's the European Fiesta basic suspension. It's not a very durable damper. But it is a cheap way to get the Fiesta lowered enough to get through Tech at an SCCA autocross.
I prefer to have some adjustability and like the Koni Sport damper. With an Eibach or H&R spring set. The Koni STRT is said to be like a sport set to soft. I can't say for sure because I have not tried that Koni product yet.
I understand that Bilstein offers a B-8 adjustable shock for the Fiesta. It's well regarded but seams to be difficult to find, according to the forums.
I believe that there is a couple of paths that could be taken on terms of improvement in the handling of the Basic Fiesta. I think big sway bars are a mistake for either of those paths. Better dampers, poly bushings, adjustable end links and very light wheels wrapped in grippy tires will be most effective. Both versions of the Fiesta are what could be called "momentum cars". The fuel economy gearing in the manual transmission basic Fiesta is the biggest impediment to making substantial improvements to it as an autocross toy.

Motion ratio won't be tied to a individual product. It's the measurement of how much mechanical advantage the wheel assembly has over the springs based on their physical location on the suspension arm. I.E. McPherson strut front suspension usually has almost 1:1 because the strut clevis bolts almost directly to the upright. In contrast, the rear suspension mounts the springs much further inboard of the wheel, so the suspension arm has much greater mechanical advantage over the spring. I haven't checked, but I would guess for this reason you'd usually see spring sets with a higher rear bias. However, I have seen one coilover kit that actually mounts the rear spring on the damper. It's the kit for b-spec cars from Ford. That would in fact change the rear motion ratio.

Im not any good at the actual math formulas myself, but once you know motion ratio, you can get a measurement for wheel rate, and in turn ride frequency. All numbers you can plug into various tables to get computations (thankfully for the math impaired like me lol). It helps with picking spring rates, rather than relying on the usual arbitrary process most aftermarket manufacturers use of lower 1" and increase rate by X%. It's also helpful if you ever wanna custom valve shocks.

Which coilovers do you run on your race car? I have no problem with struts/shocks, and actually prefer them for a road car, but it's tough sometimes finding aftermarket springs to match them with meaningful rates. That said, finding an aftermarket manufacturer like swift etc... to wind them with an inside diameter to fit that rear perch is probably going to be an issue regardless.

I like koni sport or bilstein B8. I think either of those you should be able to crack open and revalve if you want. Bilstein usually run a nice sized piston and are typically fairly digressive in their valving off the shelf.

 

[AnthonyV83]

Not to mention if they salt the roads where you live. I'm pretty upset I didn't get my beater running for the winter, my expensive rack and pinion I put on my truck got covered in salt and now it's going to take some hours to get it cleaned back up.

OP, are you doing autocross? I find the stock gearing fine for "spirited" backroad driving.

I actually live in California, land of perpetual sunshine (and wildfires lol). No road salt issues thankfully in my region.

This would just be a back road toy. Where I live im surrounded by wonderful driving roads and have been stuck driving a Prius because of my wife's 100mi round trip daily commute.

Cars on my radar for the task are Honda fit, Toyota yaris, and Fiesta (non ST), maybe fiat 500. I briefly owned an Abarth but had to trade it in for a more practical vehicle at the time.

Fiesta is very nearly leading the pack at the moment, maybe tied with the Fit. It has from what I can tell best aftermarket support, probably thanks to the ST lol.

 

[manbearpig]

I'm sure the Fit is the more practical choice, but when it comes to handling, they never even bring the Fit up when talking about the Fiesta... they always compare it to the Mini and even the RWD competition (BRZ/86, Miata)

 

[scotman]

Not to mention if they salt the roads where you live. I'm pretty upset I didn't get my beater running for the winter, my expensive rack and pinion I put on my truck got covered in salt and now it's going to take some hours to get it cleaned back up.

OP, are you doing autocross? I find the stock gearing fine for "spirited" backroad driving.

Motion ratio won't be tied to a individual product. It's the measurement of how much mechanical advantage the wheel assembly has over the springs based on their physical location on the suspension arm. I.E. McPherson strut front suspension usually has almost 1:1 because the strut clevis bolts almost directly to the upright. In contrast, the rear suspension mounts the springs much further inboard of the wheel, so the suspension arm has much greater mechanical advantage over the spring. I haven't checked, but I would guess for this reason you'd usually see spring sets with a higher rear bias. However, I have seen one coilover kit that actually mounts the rear spring on the damper. It's the kit for b-spec cars from Ford. That would in fact change the rear motion ratio.

Im not any good at the actual math formulas myself, but once you know motion ratio, you can get a measurement for wheel rate, and in turn ride frequency. All numbers you can plug into various tables to get computations (thankfully for the math impaired like me lol). It helps with picking spring rates, rather than relying on the usual arbitrary process most aftermarket manufacturers use of lower 1" and increase rate by X%. It's also helpful if you ever wanna custom valve shocks.

Which coilovers do you run on your race car? I have no problem with struts/shocks, and actually prefer them for a road car, but it's tough sometimes finding aftermarket springs to match them with meaningful rates. That said, finding an aftermarket manufacturer like swift etc... to wind them with an inside diameter to fit that rear perch is probably going to be an issue regardless.

I like koni sport or bilstein B8. I think either of those you should be able to crack open and revalve if you want. Bilstein usually run a nice sized piston and are typically fairly digressive in their valving off the shelf.

Hi Anthony. We had a. Program that we would plug in the various metrics and get a result of wheel rate. We used a suspension kit from Ford Racing for our Showroom stock racecar that was created by the Canadian firm Multimatic.
That wheelrate number ( like all the other nodes!) Is a floating calculation. It will change as soon as any changes are made in any part of the system
I couldn't say what you would end up with, or offer a valid opinion on a non specific plan.
Personally, I have not found any situation where it was "easy" to crack open a damper and change the valving. The Koni Sport is a serviceable component. But that is not to say that it a a DIY deal! I am unaware of anyone outside of an professional race shop or automotive engineering development firm that has the technical capability to accurately and reliably rebuild or "tune" a high quality damper. Just having a modern shock Dyno is greater than the cost of a really nice custom built home!
I would say that the budget you originally mentioned is reasonable if you are talking about a used Fiesta ST plus a margin for some decent struts and tires. You would like the FiST better than the basic Fiesta. The ST is much closer to the performance ideal than the basic car. Post up a description and pictures of the end result of your search!

 

[AnthonyV83]

I'm sure the Fit is the more practical choice, but when it comes to handling, they never even bring the Fit up when talking about the Fiesta... they always compare it to the Mini and even the RWD competition (BRZ/86, Miata)

I think the Fit would be pretty similar in terms of cornering fun after sorting the suspension. It just doesn't have a "big brother" like the Fiesta has in the ST that lots of aftermarket manufacturers have developed stuff for. Funny, I've considered every one of the cars you mentioned above at some point lol. For this project though, I need the price of the car itself to be low as possible (without the car having loads of miles on it). The NON ST fiesta has the lowest cost of entry by far.

 

[AnthonyV83]

Hi Anthony. We had a. Program that we would plug in the various metrics and get a result of wheel rate. We used a suspension kit from Ford Racing for our Showroom stock racecar that was created by the Canadian firm Multimatic.
That wheelrate number ( like all the other nodes!) Is a floating calculation. It will change as soon as any changes are made in any part of the system
I couldn't say what you would end up with, or offer a valid opinion on a non specific plan.
Personally, I have not found any situation where it was "easy" to crack open a damper and change the valving. The Koni Sport is a serviceable component. But that is not to say that it a a DIY deal! I am unaware of anyone outside of an professional race shop or automotive engineering development firm that has the technical capability to accurately and reliably rebuild or "tune" a high quality damper. Just having a modern shock Dyno is greater than the cost of a really nice custom built home!
I would say that the budget you originally mentioned is reasonable if you are talking about a used Fiesta ST plus a margin for some decent struts and tires. You would like the FiST better than the basic Fiesta. The ST is much closer to the performance ideal than the basic car. Post up a description and pictures of the end result of your search!

Is it B-spec racing you do with car with the multimatic's? Admittedly, it was watching some of those races online that got me thinking "well if they can have that much fun with a b segment subcompact on the track, I could put one together to suit my wants" lol

Mulimatic make some awesome stuff. Do your dampers use the DSSV stuff?

For some shock dyno's your definitely in house territory cost wise lol. But for the "portable" electric units that use a load cell you can get stuff for about $10-$20K. That's what a lot of the folks running small shops around here use for tuning. I don't have one personally, but when I was more actively running my suspension/brake/chassis parts business I thought about investing in one.

I haven't seen a set of Koni's opened up, but have seen Bilstein's and others that are serviceable. Mostly it's just draining the nitrogen/shock oil which isn't terribly complicated. If your just changing seals, you'd only need new shock oil and the fittings to re-pressurize the shock with nitrogen. If your taking apart the piston and changing the shim stack that's where the shock dyno comes in handy. Which I think the aforementioned rigs can do sufficiently. That said, if you make friends with somebody that has a 4 post shaker lemme know lol.

Im shooting for SE or similar model since I've seen some fairly lowish mileage vehicles around for sub $10K. I have seen ST in that range but most are either near or well into 6 figure mileage. Which, if they've been well maintained isn't a big issue, but it's a big IF lol

 

[scotman]

No.

Is it B-spec racing you do with car with the multimatic's? Admittedly, it was watching some of those races online that got me thinking "well if they can have that much fun with a b segment subcompact on the track, I could put one together to suit my wants" lol

Mulimatic make some awesome stuff. Do your dampers use the DSSV stuff?

For some shock dyno's your definitely in house territory cost wise lol. But for the "portable" electric units that use a load cell you can get stuff for about $10-$20K. That's what a lot of the folks running small shops around here use for tuning. I don't have one personally, but when I was more actively running my suspension/brake/chassis parts business I thought about investing in one.

I haven't seen a set of Koni's opened up, but have seen Bilstein's and others that are serviceable. Mostly it's just draining the nitrogen/shock oil which isn't terribly complicated. If your just changing seals, you'd only need new shock oil and the fittings to re-pressurize the shock with nitrogen. If your taking apart the piston and changing the shim stack that's where the shock dyno comes in handy. Which I think the aforementioned rigs can do sufficiently. That said, if you make friends with somebody that has a 4 post shaker lemme know lol.

Im shooting for SE or similar model since I've seen some fairly lowish mileage vehicles around for sub $10K. I have seen ST in that range but most are either near or well into 6 figure mileage. Which, if they've been well maintained isn't a big issue, but it's a big IF lol[/QUOTE
It was a Sports Car Club of America, showroom stock C, road racing prepared Ford ZX2. The kit we used is very nice. But, it is pre spool valve era.
As far as damper service and tuning equipment is concerned. That was a subject of some discussion between my partner and I. My opinion was and is that there are very few customers at the club racing level (and even fewer casual enthusiasts)who would have the budget to justify offering that service in a profitable way. The entire club level amateur racing landscape has shrunk since the late 2000's. There used to be waiting lists to join many clubs and then, when you finally got in, there were cutoff numbers for many classes! We built,raced and sold several Improved touring Mustangs and often saw 25 to 30 car fields for a club race. We were participating at the beginning of the transponder era and had invested a fair chunk of money into a good two way radio set along with renting the lap transponder. GPS telemetry was not imagined at our level.