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Fiesta 1.6 "J" code timing problem.

Ecmech58

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#1
2 questions
1. Who designed this engine?
Please don't just say Ford. The engineer would be nice. Or a contact point for the design team.
2. Has anyone else had trouble getting the engine to stay in time after a head change?

My son and I have done numerous heads and timing belts/chains and this one is beating us up. After the initial attempt, the engine ran smooth. Took it for a test ride and it ran like kaka. Threw a p0017 and a 0015 code. Redid it twice, and same issue. Took it to friends shop, he redid it, ran better, but still threw the codes. Replaced the cams and phasers, and also the pump (saw scoring on the cam bearing journals) it ran really good but still threw p0017 and now p0012.

If anyone has an insight here. I would love to hear it.
 

scotman

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#2
You need to get a scan tool that is capable of doing a timing recalibration. Even If you are certain that the timing marks all line up. It will need that procedure done. It’s basically a conversation between the pcm and the scan tool that checks and confirms the timing is correct.
 
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Ecmech58

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Thread Starter #4
You need to get a scan tool that is capable of doing a timing recalibration. Even If you are certain that the timing marks all line up. It will need that procedure done. It’s basically a conversation between the pcm and the scan tool that checks and confirms the timing is correct.
Say what?
In the past years that I have done timing I have never EVER heard of having to "recalibrate" the timing with a scanner. EVER. So now im kinda PO'd that such a basic car would need this level of technical work. ITS just a timing belt. Ok...ok, now that i got that out. Do you know where I would normally find a scan tool capable of doing this??
 
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Ecmech58

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Thread Starter #5
How's the bottom gear? The one on the crank?

Have you read this thread yet?
https://www.fordfiesta.org/threads/2014-ford-fiesta-timing-belt-guide-broken.8684/post-22980

There may be an issue with the crank gear and its ability to hold the belt fast to the cams.
The crank timing sprocket was torqued to spec. But on that subject, do you any idea WHY they didn't key the crank sprocket like every engine ever built since car were produced? See.s like an incredibly stupid idea to have it held in place with just compression! Especially with an interference engine!
 

Handy Andy

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#6
No it's keyed, but if the sprocket gear is worn, that keyway can also be gone on the crankshaft side too.

It would explain the spin - the key is a rise on the crank side and a notch on the gear same as the harmonic balancer Crank belt pulley uses.
 
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Ecmech58

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Thread Starter #7
No it's keyed, but if the sprocket gear is worn, that keyway can also be gone on the crankshaft side too.

It would explain the spin - the key is a rise on the crank side and a notch on the gear same as the harmonic balancer Crank belt pulley uses.
No it isn't keyed. What are you talking about? There is no key. Nada, nothing, zip, zilch. No slot for a key, no alignment marks, no shear marks or scoring marks from it shearing off.

I'm sorry folks. I probobly sound like a jerk. But you have given me absolutely nothing to figure out the issue. Ya'll sound like a bunch of amatuer diy mechanics. Who seem to infest many of these blogs. Changing your own wiper blades does not make you a mechanic.

Administrator. Remove me from the blog.
 
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Ecmech58

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Thread Starter #8
You need to get a scan tool that is capable of doing a timing recalibration. Even If you are certain that the timing marks all line up. It will need that procedure done. It’s basically a conversation between the pcm and the scan tool that checks and confirms the timing is correct.
No you don't. WHT the xxxx? Who told you that bologna? The calibration is Don through the computer via the cam and crank sensors.

If you don't know just say you don't know ok.
 

Handy Andy

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#9
Ya'll sound like a bunch of amatuer diy mechanics. Who seem to infest many of these blogs.
Sigh...
1663812319095.png
The thing uses a "pin" for the key.
Hint - It's a bolt to keep TDC while you fix this.​

When I see rants like this - I can't help but wonder whom is really posting this thread; a gripe, or something we can actually help them with.

Sounds like the crankshaft harmonic balancer was not seated correctly. (How many times before? Who knows?)

For the rest of us...

1663840590631.png

Use the kit next time.

You'll see what I'm talking about.

Because - when the sprocket is spun - it's done. There are no marks left to use - the Harmonic balancer and the crank provide that "compression" spoken about but the metal of the gear is different (softer) so the crank and balancer do the work to "crush" the sprocket to both - but the Hamonic balancer/belt pulley is its "key" to fit the sprocket onto the crank shaft.

Ford did this for their Duratec..
1664157509945.png
It's a "friction washer" that has zirconia in it to provide
a rough surface - this may be needed in the redo if the sprocket
spun but did not damage the guides that are front and rear.
This is to keep the timing belt guide on to help the belt track on friction.
This is for a last-ditch effort to keep the timing aspect working
for a sprocket that got loose on the shaft.
CHECK YOUR JOURNAL CLEARANCE - else this may be a moot point
because the Journal (the diameter of the crankshaft) may have been damaged
because of that spin and ruckus from it setting those PCM codes.
You may get it to work again, but you might lose a lot of oil and coat the belt with a slick layer of it
- rendering this whole effort useless - or worse - the sprocket still spins because of too much clearance.​

They did this so that when an engine (like this design) is damaged and loses aspect - the repair can be made if the gear - being softer - has lost its location aspect - just; pin it, replace the gear, realign the cams and install the belt and balancer - you are well on your way to getting done.

The older days, of using the dog and clutch - if the chain broke or the balancer got loose - it can ruin the crankshaft - then you're in for a major rebuild. Including a new crank.
 
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Ecmech58

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Thread Starter #10
Sigh...
View attachment 6964
The thing uses a "pin" for the key.
Hint - It's a bolt to keep TDC while you fix this.​

When I see rants like this - I can't help but wonder whom is really posting this thread; a gripe, or something we can actually help them with.

Sounds like the crankshaft harmonic balancer was not seated correctly. (How many times before? Who knows?)

For the rest of us...


Use the kit next time.

You'll see what I'm talking about.

Because - when the sprocket is spun - it's done. There are no marks left to use - the Harmonic balancer and the crank provide that "compression" spoken about but the metal of the gear is different (softer) so the crank and balancer do the work to "crush" the sprocket to both - but the Hamonic balancer/belt pulley is its "key" to fit the sprocket onto the crank shaft.

Ford did this for their Duratec..
View attachment 6978
It's a "friction washer" that has zirconia in it to provide
a rough surface - this may be needed in the redo if the sprocket
spun but did not damage the guides that are front and rear.
This is to keep the timing belt guide on to help the belt track on friction.
This is for a last-ditch effort to keep the timing aspect working
for a sprocket that got loose on the shaft.
CHECK YOUR JOURNAL CLEARANCE - else this may be a moot point
because the Journal (the diameter of the crankshaft) may have been damaged
because of that spin and ruckus from it setting those PCM codes.
You may get it to work again, but you might lose a lot of oil and coat the belt with a slick layer of it
- rendering this whole effort useless - or worse - the sprocket still spins because of too much clearance.​

They did this so that when an engine (like this design) is damaged and loses aspect - the repair can be made if the gear - being softer - has lost its location aspect - just; pin it, replace the gear, realign the cams and install the belt and balancer - you are well on your way to getting done.

The older days, of using the dog and clutch - if the chain broke or the balancer got loose - it can ruin the crankshaft - then you're in for a major rebuild. Including a new crank.
Ok. Isee all you are saying. And I looked at the pictures you put up. Answer me one question. What engine e code are you referencing? It's the 8th digit of the VIN btw.
First off, the engine was factory original. No work had been done to the car when it got to me.
Second, when i removed the crank pulley/harmon8c balancer i marked it with a green paint marker incase there was an alignment issue.
Third, there was no "zirconia washer or a washer at all behind the crank pulley when i diassembled it.
Fourth and lastly, my crank sprocket looks nothing at all like the one you posted. I think we are talking about 2 differe t engines. My sprocket has absolutely no marks on it related to timing.

so I ask again...or am I ranting? Again, What engine code are YOU talking about?


The ng s-l400.jpg s-l400.jpg
 

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Ecmech58

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Thread Starter #11
How's the bottom gear? The one on the crank?

Have you read this thread yet?
https://www.fordfiesta.org/threads/2014-ford-fiesta-timing-belt-guide-broken.8684/post-22980

There may be an issue with the crank gear and its ability to hold the belt fast to the cams.
You folks are talking about a completely different engine.

The thread clearly states its a J code engine. 1.6 non turbo base model. Ya'll are likely talking about the 1.6 that's used in an escape or something. Jeez oh pete what a waste of my time talking to this blog.
 

Handy Andy

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#12
Er, no, were talking about Ford and it';s way to do things.

They had to find solutions to their other engines this "J" came from.

Once the Hamonic Balancer is removed or even loosened - it's aspect and the sprocket behind - it's now loose too,

It's not like the old days.

We're trying to help the rest of us - if you wish to participate - great - but degrading comments - and your negativity is not helping us in accomplishing it.
 
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Ecmech58

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Thread Starter #13
Er, no, were talking about Ford and it';s way to do things.

They had to find solutions to their other engines this "J" came from.

Once the Hamonic Balancer is removed or even loosened - it's aspect and the sprocket behind - it's now loose too,

It's not like the old days.

We're trying to help the rest of us - if you wish to participate - great - but degrading comments - and your negativity is not helping us in accomplishing it.
I understand. I truly do. But what you seem to be missing with all I have said and shown is I am talking about one engine and you a different engine. And you are insisting I am wrong. I posted a picture of my crank sprocket. I assume you saw it. It is nothing like the pic you posted.i also looked up the part number of the washer you posted a pic of. It fits 2.0 and 2.3 engines. Not a 1.6. So hopefully you see my confusion and therefore my frustration.add the post from someone about a special scanner to "calibrate" the cam and crank shafts or thier respective sensors. And again you should see the confusion I have.

These blogs have always been a great place to get good insights. And I have used them for years when I had questions.

I'm sorry you take my frustration as a negative attitude. That's not it.its frustration over all the bad info.
 
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Ecmech58

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Thread Starter #14
Er, no, were talking about Ford and it';s way to do things.

They had to find solutions to their other engines this "J" came from.

Once the Hamonic Balancer is removed or even loosened - it's aspect and the sprocket behind - it's now loose too,

It's not like the old days.

We're trying to help the rest of us - if you wish to participate - great - but degrading comments - and your negativity is not helping us in accomplishing it.
Ha ha ha .... ok, I have an update. Called the dealer. Gave them my VIN. And lo and behold..... my engine doesn't use either that washer or crank sprocket. The washer fits the...like I said...2.0 and 2.3 engines. Now, you understand this info is from the dealer. Not my opinion.

So all that tech talk about aspects and zirconia impregnated washers.... IS NOT FOR THE FIESTA 1.6!

Bye people. Good luck and good day.
 
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Ecmech58

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Thread Starter #15
You need to get a scan tool that is capable of doing a timing recalibration. Even If you are certain that the timing marks all line up. It will need that procedure done. It’s basically a conversation between the pcm and the scan tool that checks and confirms the timing is correct.
Ha ha that's funny.
 

Handy Andy

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#16
Hmmm...If he's that bad of a mechanic, then why did he come out here and tell us all of this - only to then negate himself ...
My son and I have done numerous heads and timing belts/chains and this one is beating us up.
Ok, not only do you want to throw your son under the bus, but you're also throwing everyone else whom may be trying to help you - under there with him

In the past years that I have done timing I have never EVER heard of having to "recalibrate" the timing with a scanner. EVER. So now im kinda PO'd that such a basic car would need this level of technical work.
- quit generalizing.

You really have had your head in the Samd for a long time....
1664362663883.png

The Dog-ma (pun intended) and for it to work in a clutch to keep the gears turning - you obviously have not learned lessons that other makers have had to suffer consistently bad news and reputation over - being that Dog and Key types of cams and sprockets on smaller engines are not the best route to take - even Suzuki learned this. I know I owned one (Several really) and suffered from their bad level of quality - never lasted 70,000 miles. Failed epically and early under many Emissions warrantied clauses and support. Can't make money if the company has to replace motors - and they didn't - so they failed in their own Why? Dog and Key based shafts and small cranks - not enough room and too much torque for small areas - like your situation - are just one of many challenges they faced.

If anyone has an insight here. I would love to hear it.
Ok, to help the rest of us, Don't Do It His Way...
 
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Ecmech58

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Thread Starter #17
Hmmm...If he's that bad of a mechanic, then why did he come out here and tell us all of this - only to then negate himself ...


Ok, not only do you want to throw your son under the bus, but you're also throwing everyone else whom may be trying to help you - under there with him



- quit generalizing.

You really have had your head in the Samd for a long time....

The Dog-ma (pun intended) and for it to work in a clutch to keep the gears turning - you obviously have not learned lessons that other makers have had to suffer consistently bad news and reputation over - being that Dog and Key types of cams and sprockets on smaller engines are not the best route to take - even Suzuki learned this. I know I owned one (Several really) and suffered from their bad level of quality - never lasted 70,000 miles. Failed epically and early under many Emissions warrantied clauses and support. Can't make money if the company has to replace motors - and they didn't - so they failed in their own Why? Dog and Key based shafts and small cranks - not enough room and too much torque for small areas - like your situation - are just one of many challenges they faced.



Ok, to help the rest of us, Don't Do It His Way...
Ok. I apparently have to apologize for my frustrated conduct on this blog. I came in looking for ideas that would help me correct a timing anomaly. And my questions and frustrated responses seems to have really ticked off the other folks here. So let me start again.

2015 Ford Fiesta S
1.6L Non Turbo "J" code engine.

Read the procedures on setting the timing
Watched 2 separate videos on setting the timing.

Came to this blog to get some insights from others.

Scotsman tells me I need a special scanner to calibrate the sensors. This was wrong. Verified with a fleet tech who had 17 Fiestas under his care. and he has never had to Calibrate anything after a timing job.

Handy Andy tells me the lower crank is keyed. It's not. Verified by the dealership.
Handy Andy also told me a zirconia washer was worn or something. Wrong again. Verified by the dealer. and i used the part number on the package he posted a pic of.

Re-explained the car engine was a J Code non turbo. Provided pics of my crank pulley.
Still ridiculed.
Researched further and found that the 1.6 Turbo in the ST Version Fiesta has the pulley Handy Andy showed in his pictures. This is the X Code engine. Different cams and crank sprocket. Who knows...may it even has the zirconia washer.

I cruise the blogs on many of the cars I have worked on. Nissan Altimas, Chevy Malibus, Saturn Relays, GMC Envoys and on and on
And they have always been a wealth of information.
Andy, I don't know your background. As far as I know you are an automotive engineer, maybe the one who designed this engine. Or you may be some guy in an A/C'd family room who has never had greasy fingernails. Or you might be a master mechanic who would make my skill level pale in comparison to yours. I don't know.
But when I reiterated it was a j code engine you should have said...wow, maybe they are different. Let me look this up. Instead you just kept up YOUR rant badmouthing me

I wish you ST types all the best. I hope you help everyone else who comes along. You did absolutely NADA for me.
BTW ... I figured out the problem.

Have a nice day folks. And thanks for ....well...nothing.
 
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