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Wheel Size, Offset & Tire Information

Handy Andy

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#21
Remember the 195/50 is 50% sidewall height of that 195 number versus 195/60 having 60% of that same 195 value - you have MORE percentage (60% versus the 50%) of sidewall.

From a person that has had potholes cut thru a sidewall of a tire, it does not happen as often now but when carcasses for the tire itself were made out of natural materials - versus the synthetics used now - Radial or Bias ply - the more tire you have between you and the road surface gives you and your whole car a little less shock value and both you and your car won't need as much Chiropractic therapy later.
 

Handy Andy

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#22
The stock wheels on my fiesta are also 195/50r16 with a +42mm offset; I was wondering if someone knows if a 205/50r16 say a +40mm or +38mm or a 205/45r16 would fit without . I mainly want to try and get a bit more rubber for a softer ride and try to fill up the wheel wells as much as I can with just rims and tires.
Thats a tough call, for you really need to also look at the RIM WIDTH - not just Offset.

IN a typical 15" the steel rim width is 6"

IN any tire rim above 15" for FORD using 108mm (4.25 inch bolt pattern) it's spreads out to 6.5" wide (6-1/2") and wider
  • so that affects the "ballooning" of the wheel and tire appearance
  • Offset is just the push or pull in from the "natural" CASTER (the tip-in/out or knife in) edge.
    • Where the contact point of tilt out or in of the wheel is - just below the bearing and steering knuckles' rotation axis.
    • Changing offset will make the tires' contact point change - so wider tire and rim size have to be kept within a range so as you steer, you or your vehicle are not fighting each other or the road - by causing tire scrub - that will waste a good gummy tread pretty fast.
      • this is above and beyond the typical rub or scrape from extreme angle turns
1639574849001.png
The wider the tire - the more curve (balloon) it will have in an effort to squeeze into the width of the rim to seat its bead.
  • In some cases, its 'a more preferred method (the curve or pucker of the balloon) using a narrow rim works in your favor for reducing road footprint contact under lighter loads to help with rolling efficiently to road resistance - you handle the rest by inflation pressures and noble gasses used if you're on track.
You have two things to worry about - the outer fender and inner wheel-well - on top of the changes in geometry in both Caster and Camber and the ability of the wheel to turn or rotate thru the turn and the amount of torque the steering pump will have to force the wheel against the force of the road against it.

The wider the tire- the more that scrub effect and the CAMBER (tippy-toe out or in, not just Toe-in or out) and where that force is at in the radius of the turn - will seriously affect handling. The lower control arm is only going to have so much distance or throw to work with - you'll hear clunks from the bottoming out caused by the ultra-wide tire against the throw length the control arm. Although not a big deal - you also don't want to shred the tire either on the fender just trying to handle a sharp curve at highway speeds.

At current height - even a 225-45 17 is a bit much - you actually need to RAISE the car to handle the dive even with the sway bar and upgraded bushings.
 

Rick83

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#23
About the air pressure sensors (TPMS). When buying new wheels&tires they offer you to include these sensors on a separate cost. I don't know if it is true but I've read that taking the old sensors from your older wheels and installing them on the new ones can cost more? Anyone could share your experience on this?

Right now I have 15 inch wheels with 205/50 on them. I'm looking to buy 16x7 rims with +42mm offset and have 205/45 tires on them.

I'm assuming it should work. I'm not a fan of reducing 5% on the sidewall but I guess is the way to go so the tires will fit properly on the wheel well. The rims I want only come on 16 or 17 inch.

Any suggestions would be appreciated 👍🏼.
 

econoboxrocks

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#24
About the air pressure sensors (TPMS). When buying new wheels&tires they offer you to include these sensors on a separate cost. I don't know if it is true but I've read that taking the old sensors from your older wheels and installing them on the new ones can cost more? Anyone could share your experience on this?

Right now I have 15 inch wheels with 205/50 on them. I'm looking to buy 16x7 rims with +42mm offset and have 205/45 tires on them.

I'm assuming it should work. I'm not a fan of reducing 5% on the sidewall but I guess is the way to go so the tires will fit properly on the wheel well. The rims I want only come on 16 or 17 inch.

Any suggestions would be appreciated 👍🏼.
It's hard to say without doing it, but if the 205s aren't a problem now, they shouldn't be with 16s. https://tiresize.com/comparison/
I know that on my car, you can go up one size taller and they won't rub, and my car sits lower than yours.

What wheels are you looking at?
 
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Handy Andy

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#25
When asking about TPMS, the main problem is when you switch, you need to also (or at least they recommend) buy 4 (or 5 if rotating in a spare as part of your tire Maintenace routine 5-wheel versus 4-wheel approach for even wearing) new Lithium batteries to replace the original batteries. They are supposed to last 10 years - but this is real-world - so YMMV

1642730557348.png

You'll have to remove the tire from the wheel - so you can then loosen the VALVE STEM to back out the clamping rung and its seal - then the unit can be pried open - the last conversation I had with my parts dealer - claimed these use a CR2450 lithium "button" battery - it's big.

Buy a bunch of CR 2540 batteries to pop out the old and put in new

The Spare in my Ford does not have a TPMS - so if it gets used, it will not get noticed - so the TPMS ICON will lite and stay lit until the old tire is fixed and back on.

So, it's why I recommend the 5-wheel rotation that gives you a working full-service spare - I live in the Rust Belt of Michigan so Potholes and chunks of road are the typical hazards we face in winter.

1642732900401.png
The sensor sits inside the tire and monitors the pressure, but if you choose a different rim, just have them transfer over the TPMS stuff - you don't have to buy new sensors but it's cheap insurance, but they will charge you for THEIR labor to do this work on top of their TPMS markup. They won't do the battery in them, you have to get it home, pop the tire off, deflate and break the bead seal to remove the TPMS and replace the battery then reverse the process just pop it back on - no retraining needed.

Or keep the rims from the old, take it all home - the now lit TPMS from the ones on the old Rims are what it's looking for - then you can put these on as you are comfortable with it. The TPMS lite will not keep, force stop or alter the Trac ABS in any way - just it's there to annoy the h*ll out of you until you get someone with a Forscan tool to turn off the Gosh Darn sensor alert.

The TPMS itself cannot work well if you use SLIME FIX A FLAT or any other type of liquid sealer - you'll need to clean all that out and throw away the sensor and put in new because it will plug up the pressure monitor in it - killing the electronics.
 
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Rick83

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#26
It's hard to say without doing it, but if the 205s aren't a problem now, they shouldn't be with 16s. https://tiresize.com/comparison/
I know that on my car, you can go up one size taller and they won't rub, and my car sits lower than yours.

What wheels are you looking at?
I would like the Sparco Terra (white paint finish). I don't even know how much they weight, I'm just going for them for the looks because right now I only have stock black rims with caps on them AND I happen to lose one just a few days ago. 😒

I don't mind the 1 inch size up although my actual tires are fairly new. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough but I guess the best buy would be a 15" rim and simply swap the actual tires.

Econoboxrocks have you swap your air sensors from your rims or bought new ones before?
 

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#27
I would like the Sparco Terra (white paint finish). I don't even know how much they weight, I'm just going for them for the looks because right now I only have stock black rims with caps on them AND I happen to lose one just a few days ago. 😒

I don't mind the 1 inch size up although my actual tires are fairly new. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough but I guess the best buy would be a 15" rim and simply swap the actual tires.

Econoboxrocks have you swap your air sensors from your rims or bought new ones before?
If you swap the sensors wheel for wheel, they will work; you will have to pay to have them moved over, but you don't need new sensors that way--maybe just new seals & batteries(?). Obviously, if you want to keep the old wheels set up with their sensors, that won't work.
 

Rick83

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#28
When asking about TPMS, the main problem is when you switch, you need to also (or at least they recommend) buy 4 (or 5 if rotating in a spare as part of your tire Maintenace routine 5-wheel versus 4-wheel approach for even wearing) new Lithium batteries to replace the original batteries. They are supposed to last 10 years - but this is real-world - so YMMV


You'll have to remove the tire from the wheel - so you can then loosen the VALVE STEM to back out the clamping rung and its seal - then the unit can be pried open - the last conversation I had with my parts dealer - claimed these use a CR2450 lithium "button" battery - it's big.

Buy a bunch of CR 2540 batteries to pop out the old and put in new

The Spare in my Ford does not have a TPMS - so if it gets used, it will not get noticed - so the TPMS ICON will lite and stay lit until the old tire is fixed and back on.

So, it's why I recommend the 5-wheel rotation that gives you a working full-service spare - I live in the Rust Belt of Michigan so Potholes and chunks of road are the typical hazards we face in winter.

The sensor sits inside the tire and monitors the pressure, but if you choose a different rim, just have them transfer over the TPMS stuff - you don't have to buy new sensors but it's cheap insurance, but they will charge you for THEIR labor to do this work on top of their TPMS markup. They won't do the battery in them, you have to get it home, pop the tire off, deflate and break the bead seal to remove the TPMS and replace the battery then reverse the process just pop it back on - no retraining needed.

Or keep the rims from the old, take it all home - the now lit TPMS from the ones on the old Rims are what it's looking for - then you can put these on as you are comfortable with it. The TPMS lite will not keep, force stop or alter the Trac ABS in any way - just it's there to annoy the h*ll out of you until you get someone with a Forscan tool to turn off the Gosh Darn sensor alert.

The TPMS itself cannot work well if you use SLIME FIX A FLAT or any other type of liquid sealer - you'll need to clean all that out and throw away the sensor and put in new because it will plug up the pressure monitor in it - killing the electronics.
TireRack charges $168 for the 4 sensors. It seems to me from your experience that it would be convenient and not as expensive to just buy them new, right? Because, the way I see it, paying to have them swapped or doing it yourself would be hard to beat $168. I don't even have the tools to pop a tire from a rim nor I've done it before. Also like you said new sensors will have new batteries and that would be +X amounts of years of battery life.

I also read that if you get new sensors they need to be initialize at the dealership? Or is this something most tire shops do these days?
 

LionsTooth

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#29
TireRack charges $168 for the 4 sensors. It seems to me from your experience that it would be convenient and not as expensive to just buy them new, right? Because, the way I see it, paying to have them swapped or doing it yourself would be hard to beat $168. I don't even have the tools to pop a tire from a rim nor I've done it before. Also like you said new sensors will have new batteries and that would be +X amounts of years of battery life.

I also read that if you get new sensors they need to be initialize at the dealership? Or is this something most tire shops do these days?
I see $168 as a bargain. The shop that installs them will initialize them. Be sure to ask but I am 99% sure they will without asking.
 

Handy Andy

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#30
TireRack charges $168 for the 4 sensors. It seems to me from your experience that it would be convenient and not as expensive to just buy them new, right? Because, the way I see it, paying to have them swapped or doing it yourself would be hard to beat $168. I don't even have the tools to pop a tire from a rim nor I've done it before. Also like you said new sensors will have new batteries and that would be +X amounts of years of battery life.

I also read that if you get new sensors they need to be initialize at the dealership? Or is this something most tire shops do these days?
To answer both - a simple yes, that SHOULD be why they charge you so much in the first place.
Get it in writing!

Get your OLD rims and TPMS should still be on them. You need to verify - they will charge fees for even putting up with you and your car - if they can get away with it. They should offer the tire disposal and the TPMS install and relearn all in the bottom price, if you wish to resell the rims - then keep the rims you might lose a credit but with used parts these days, you'll recover some of that co$t soon enough reselling good used rims - especially if they have little curb rash the better the fetch price.

The initialization of the new sensors can be done two ways, a complete battery (pull ground cable) reset and relearn procedure or they should have the shop tool for this
 
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econoboxrocks

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#31
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#32

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#34
So, not knowing much about wheels and offsets i bought some 6Jx15 rims with 49.5 offset, while Handy Andy's table a few comments up shows 47.5 for 15 inch wheels, question is will the wheels fit or will i need 5mm spacers?
I intend on running with 195/50 or 185/60 tires to make the car a bit higher..
 

Handy Andy

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#35
I'm using Ford Contour rims which are types 6JX15 which is the 47.5mm Offset ones - for winter - with 185-70 series - but too I have a lift kit/shim installed to raise the car - due to local roads are sometimes unpassable when conditions are not the best.

The 185's give the smaller footprint but also work (to me - this is just my opinion) the to help put more weight on the snow in a smaller width - but give you slightly longer foot "tread" line (front to back) which seem to offer a ski like performance than a typical wider tire that gives you a toboggan type of feel - where there less control over the wider size that does not seem to dig in as deep as you'd want to help with steering control.

What I see in the footprint it leaves the "oval" the 185 is, versus the 195 "oval" (when parked - that outline when the water drains out and the sediment left behind leaves that watermark on the garage floor) the 195 as wide as it is, I see it as a round puck type of print versus the elongated oval that runs along the drive line the 185 brings - now your mileage may vary but these are "cheapie" discount tire
 

Handy Andy

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#36
Ok, the question was what did you (do you) use for Winter tires?

New car owner so I had to trust the OEM that was on the vehicle - Optimo 195/50/16

  • 1st Year? Not bad, able to walk out of many a winter slush and ice with little problems ...
    • Once issues with braking were addressed
  • 2nd Year? Kinda got a bit of hydroplaning and more skid - not able to walk out of as many slushy moments with OEM tires
    • An ongoing problem with an alignment and track from front to rear came to a head while viewing the tracking tires left behind in the snow - saw where crabbing was occurring so had to address that - again, not much help from the dealerships on this condition.
  • Although conditions for temperature and snow levels varied between the years, I was able to experience the new grip versus the wear - or worn down tires and the grip - of two years lifespan, seems a bit too little time between changes for my liking.

Had owned a Scion with it's own special considerations - the "stock" the car came with was 205/55/R15 on a 15" rim - but the PLACARD of that year, was correct, that same geometry - but the tire dealer stated 185/60/R15 series on their tire catalog.

I went looking for 175/70 series on a 5.5 - 15 rim. 4X100mm versus Ford 4X108mm (4.25in) if you needed to know settled on a Walmarts overstock special order leftover because they didn't like it sale.

Many of you are wondering why the "70" series, well that came from the Scion I used to have from the older 2004/2005 year, in 2007 I switched from the typical goodyear (small caps intentional) to a off brand that Walmart offered.

It was mostly due to the eagles (again small caps intentional) were sized for a different car geometry than the Scion.

The low caps part is due to the nature of owning a car that - back then, your tires were special order - you didn't always get the best in performance and quality in these cases - special order is just that - replacement - not a refund if you decided to switch. IT was on you to find rims and the tires for it to fit.

I finally settled on a 175 / 70 series - which the Eagles used a 15" rim 185/60/TR15 - special order due to the TR and 60 sidewall. IT had to fit in the Wheel well - which had it's own offset issues. +45 offset. So the 175 was a narrower tire width so took to the 5.5 rim I had to locate - Dodge Neons are a good source of parts for those d*mn things if you needed to know.

You think Fiestas were low-riders - the Scions used that as a selling point on footprint and center of gravity tips type of handling feature.

They don't offer that 70's series anymore - well you can special order them, and wait. But the ones I got for the Scion, I simply transferred over when the Scion got sold off. It's what made the XYL (wife) unhappy, using those old tires on a new car, so I've now switched them to BF Goodrich Advantage - which was the tire the shop I work for, put on when the older tires wore out of the delivery vehicle I use.

1684119115944.png
These are the BF Goodrich 185/65/R15 series.
Notice... Real sipes!​

Now if someone were to ask a question about Optimo (Ford's OEM for '18-'19+) - you just need to look at two factors to know the rest of this story.

You got 195, 50 series in a 16" x 6.5" wide Rim - with a 47.5 Offset on an Alloy rim...

1684116628449.png

Note I used the word Sipes...
1684116710429.png

As you can see in the Optimo tread my OEM ones lost most of the Siping in the tread - the Replacement tire - put on in a different mileage due to road hazard, was replaced at about 27,000 miles. It has the Siping still visible.

To me these OEM tires are just to get them by that 36,000 mile Bumper to Bumper.

A better size to use would be 205/50R16 x 6.5" x 4x108 - 16" rim. This width generates a clearance issue though so the typical +47.5 offset would be replaced by a +37mm (Positive) offset - moves the tire out 10mm (1cm) but gives you the clearance to turn in tight spaces and allow the circumference of the tire to fit the wheelwell.
  • There is much to be said about Tires and why a larger size seems to do better - Although wider footprint gives you more friction to grab the surface - you also run a risk of bead seal failure - it is due to the WIDTH of the Rim
    • The narrower the Rim width, you can use a smaller Tire width (your 1st number in the series) like 195 or 185 and still have plenty of traction and stiff sidewall - due to you are only going to keep the same perimeter or Circumference of tire - the second number (50-55-60-70 and so on) then plays a role in how far up from the road the Rim sits above so it doesn't have it's bead seal damaged by impacts from potholes and road debris.
    • But if you try to use as Tire that is too wide for the Rim - the bead may fail just due to the oversizing and the curvature of the Tire squeezed to fit that width of rim versus using a WIDER rim to give the sidewall room to seal against the bead on the Rim.

We have not even talked about the performance and the Siping issues yet - these Optimo tires - to me, are part of a vehicle history that spanned 3 years and thru several attempts to get the dealerships to help with alignments - I'm just lucky to have a tire replacement - but the amount of tread wear they show is what frustrates me as to the level of friction these tires work with in scrub and oversize rim width.

  • Ok, you can say, hey didn't you have the lift done to the car - yes.
  • Didn't you also have a trailer hitch and used a trailer - Yes.
  • But - are you also looking at...
  • Alignment issues - never checked except for 1st time - after lift kit install. and was told to wait and see not necessarily in those words. I wound up fixing several issues regarding this as I waited for them to say ok, let's have a go at this. Can be an article in itself for later.
  • Brakes - and then there's brakes. Bleeding and Handbrake tension issues.
  • Mileage - for these tires to lose siping and be at treadwear bar showing moments - kind of soon for this even when you only used the trailer to haul leaves to the dump. Not all tires has even siping or balding loss either - which is what I find interesting. The uneven "Wheel to wheel" tread wear shows up - one tire tends to show more than the others raises questions...
  • Hockey pucks for the Shock and Strut mounts - which relates more to the undersized width of tire for the Rim width it was mounted to. Sidewall flexing of the shorter height from the road left little room to absorb the shock of bad roads.
  • Tires rotated on every oil change and even more during the two summer seasons. So, yes, Tire pressure monitored and tires inspected quite often.
Ok, sounds more like a whine than a fix - but you did ask in the header of this thread...

Yes, oversize rim width. As in the sidewall of the tire pressed the edges of the tires own tread pattern into the ground and road more than that at the center - which not only affects performance but the ability of the tire's shoulder to the rim to handle tire impacts from road hazards like the one that caused the replacement. Using a slightly narrower tire rim width can offset this shoulder to road effort and make the center of the tire wear more evenly with having to bear the load and scrub more equally.

1685496297534.png
The above are cross section drafts of how the BEAD of the tire and the Shoulder of the Rim meet.
You can see how the tires seal against the rim in some vehicles by observing how the seat and seal of the tire are in the the outer rim to bead - where the seal is made between the bead of the tire and shoulder of the rim.
IF there is an excessive gap - the tire may not be able to seal well in times of where road conditions and potholes can force the bead to bend - breaking the air seal - putting your tire, vehicle and even you - at risk.
  • Even an excessive balloon effect from oversize width of tire - can also force the rim to bead seal at the shoulder to generate a dangerous condition. The oversized tread affects how the load or weight the tire handles is changed - the sidewall can not support the weight - being Radial design - the tire bead will "pinch " and move away from the rim - breaking the air seal and even causing rapid deflation and tire failure.
  • On the Far right, the tire sidewall is not allowed to flex out of the rim's load bearing "axis" - the lack of balloon makes the tire act or handle loading as a stiffer unit. So the road hazards and potholes the tire will roll over and through - the sidewall then transfers the force into the rim and if too great, will cut or tear apart the tire by a shearing effect
The Balloon effect, if done right can help the Rim and Tire tread bear more load using the flexing the ballooning effect does to transfer from load, thru the tire, to the wheel, the forces bear thru the sidewall.

The Balloon effect though does affect the handling, tire tracking to roll in turns and less stiffer ride adds to more sway as the result. So they adjust suspension to accommodate by lessening wheel drop and using any-sway bar/link technology to distribute that force of impacts, and load shift - to the other side of the axle to more evenly handle and control the load shift.

But I mentioned sipes because if you look at the OEM Optimo tires, the siping used to get rid or drive away water from the sides are gone, the tire mainly pushes the water / snow ahead or behind thru the gaps in the tread - but no pressure or transfer can happen to the sides because the sipes are worn off.

Makes such worn tires a dangerous thing to use.

YMMV - Caveat Emptor!
 
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Frine

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#37
weird question but i can get a set for cheap:
07 ford fusion tires.. they're 16's, but the offset is 52 I think? is this workable onto a 13 fiesta S? from what I understand they would poke out, and I may need to put fender flares on or something for legality. just wondering, feel free to cringe at the thought but like 100 bucks for a set of wheel's and new coopers on em? Me likey a deal, lol.
 

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#38
The 52 number can be either positive or negative.

The "negative" number means they will stick out.

Ford Focus (bless it's heart) were using similar size tires before the Duratorq and Duratec motors, they used Zetec pre-2008.

We still have a couple still running in our fleet.

The different between 52mm and 47mm is about 1/4 to 1/2 inch in rim, you should be ok.

It's the "thickness" of the rim's metal (the machining and cast thickness) that will make or break it to work on the car - it has to fit the length of the hub's studs so the lugnuts can go on and hold it.
 

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#39
Oooo really? So I should try them on then? shop owner said I could before buying :)
 

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